Immigration ‘job hopping’ policy criticised
BVI News Staff - Wednesday, February 29th, 2012 at 4:24 AM
A concerned citizen gives his views at the labour meeting held at the Sir Rupert Briercliff Hall on 27th February, 2012. Photo #2 (Photo Credit: GIS/Mr. Ronnielle Frazer)
Immigration’s policy to allow persons time to seek another job in the periods between work has been criticised by some residents who feel that the decision gives expatriate workers an advantage that they should not have.
At a labour meeting at the Sir Rupert Briercliffe Hall on Monday, February 27, a resident described the movement of employees from one job to another as “an easy slide across” and told Labour Minister Dr. Kedrick Pickering that it should not be that simple.
“Some people are actually on their job with their first employer and decide that they don’t like that job and they want to go seek another job and set up things, and then easily just slide across the floor. I don’t think that when you are a non-national you have that right in any country and I think that should be the same thing here in this country… That is the quandary and we shouldn’t be playing around with it because the situation is real,” the man said.
He further told the minister: “I do apologise Mr. Minister that you are finding it difficult to understand the common practice of what is going on in this country. The question is even if somebody is putting a spin on it where a person has lost their job and the employer doesn’t want to deal with that person anymore, does this person, who is a non-national, have the right to literally go and find another job as if being a resident of the country and not follow the rules? The question is do we have rules? What are those rules and shouldn’t those rules be followed with the same principles that they should be from the beginning?”
A female resident asked the minister: “If we are so swamped and so outnumbered and all of that why is it that we have employees who are able to walk about or actually go and work illegally without a work permit and be still entertained?”
She told the gathering: “I think it all speaks to the fact that people are allowed to piggyback from one job to the other, instead of having to return home and wait for the new employment and come back to a new employer. I think that is the problem there, otherwise I think the rules and the laws are a mockery that’s what I think.”
In response to all that was said, Minister Pickering said the Labour Department has nothing to do with immigration and the granting of time for persons to stay on the island.
The minister explained that the 2010 Labour Code and the International Labour Organization code stipulates that no employee must be subjected to inhumane conditions.
To this end Dr. Pickering disclosed that there are certain conditions under which an employee may be able to leave your employment without a penalty. He explained that the law couldn’t be used to enslave people and disclosed that there have been situations where people were found to have been inhumanely treated and were allowed to leave that employment, and were given time to stay in the territory to seek additional employment.
He further explained that the issue was not as clear cut: “If you are in the country for a year and you have a family and your children are in school, it’s in the middle of the school year and you have to take care of your family…If your job circumstances change in the middle of that school year, it is inhumane to tell somebody that they have to get up and leave their family and get out. There are circumstances that dictate that you have to consider individual circumstances.”
He added: “Immigration gives an individual permission to stay in the country for a period of time and on the condition that you are actively seeking employment. If you identify a job and somebody is willing to employ you, labour is then brought into the picture… So you cannot have a work permit card walking around looking for a job… A work permit is given in response to an offer for a job.”
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36 Comments
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Woo sah; To BVIslander
You sound desperately ignorant.
would you rent ten apartments? maybe you in one and cannot get it paid for.
its the island people who paying most of the rent. you probably still living by your parents on the other hand. and if you had an apartment, you would be too proud to rent it to an island person. so shut your trap.
I have heard it said once and twice another time…island people love to work; those who born here, you know the story…they only born here.
am a proud bvi islander i remember those days when we uses to be expat in countries like santo domingo , trinidad ,antigua , st kitts,the usa and much more we were never been treated like this all of us are one people we need to stop the hate and live together
we all need to be our brother keepers and live in peace
I have children living abroad and they DO have to abide by rules like this. If they lose their job or drop out of school, they lose their visa and must return home.
What kind of person comes to a foreign country on a work visa and does not leave any provision for returning home? I’ll tell you what kind, the kind that does not INTEND to return home EVER. That is not the intention of a work permit.
Everybody wants to come to the BVI and never return to their home, but the place is only so big. If everyone who wants to stay forever stays, their will be no room for BVIslanders. There already isn’t, which is why my kids are in a foreign country on work/study visas and subject to the same thing. Tell me, is there anything here for them when/if they return to their homeland?
A student visa is not the same thing as a work permit. FYI, many countries allow a person on a work permit to apply for permanent residency after only a couple of years. The BVI is well protected with the 20 year limitation.
As for leaving provisions at home…who could do that but for the filthy rich? Do you really expect an expatriate to maintain a home in two countries? Seriously? No, most persons DO move with the intention of setting up house in their new home. Even if it is but a year or two. That being said, most persons would not take on a job for a temporary permit unless they were interested in only a short term employment. There are some transient workers like that, but the basic need of most humans is to have shelter and security. Most persons coming into the BVI to work, or the USA, UK, Canada, etc, do so under the assumption that their work permit will be renewed. NO ONE in their right mind would take a job elsewhere, leave their families, uproot their lives, sell their belongings and ship the remainder,for a job without believing there is some form of permancy to the job. Bear in mind, for many that venture to gain work experience in other countries, that permanancy is likely only 2-5 years and they will seek a new country for employment. But this nonsense of treating people like slave labor that are here to help the BVI by filling a job, an apartment, spend their money back into the economy and then ship them out the minute they or their employer realize their new employers work environment, policies, organizational culture, whatever, are not a match…it is ridiculous. Allow these expatriates the respect to be treated humanely. What is two months for a work permit transfer? If they have found another job, it is because there are no locals to fill that job opening. They will continue to pay rent, buy gas, shop for groceries, entertain at local establishments. It is of no harm to anyone. If the work permit is disapproved, they will return home or venture elsewhere. Stop being so evil minded.
Frankly I think that the Minister has a point about dealing with different situations appropriately. All I am asking him is that he don’t move forward cowardly and trying not to offend the foreigners, while getting these laws and rules straightened out. Foreigners who come to the BVI need to understand that when you come here you are a visitor, which means you are here temporarily. Let me say this to some of the foreigners who come here seeking work: Why is it that you are not trying to return home, where some of you profess to the world that your home is the best, and help correct some of the things that are wrong there. Help to correct some of the issues that prevent you from remaining there and sending you to look some other country to live in. I live in a neighborhood where there was 90% BVIslanders. Today there are almost as many foreigners as there are BVIslanders who live in my neighborhood, mainly due to them renting apartments in the many apartment buildings built here now. If I judge all foreigners by those foreigners who live here, like many foreigners judge bvislanders, I would not like any foreigners at all. They are some of the most rude and unfriendly people around. They don’t have as much manners as a dog. They walk in an out of the neighborhood everyday and not one “good morning”, “good afternoon” or “good night” comes out of their mouth. Some of them do as much as turn their heads the other direction to avoid saying “hello”. I have even heard some of the same people bad-mouthing “Tortola people”. They say that we are not friendly or kind. The same ones who refuse to greet people in their neighborhood, who they see everyday. And I am talking about men, women, boys and girls. This young man from Jamaica told me that the reason he changed his attitude about Tortola people is after meeting my family. He said based on his experience with other Tortola people he looked at all of them as bad. For one thing it is stupid to say that you hate all people from a particular place because of experiences with a few people from that place. Now if you have met every single person from a particular place and they all treated you bad, then I will agree with you disliking or hating all of them. But until then, don’t be prejudiced. That’s what RACISTS do…they judge people because of their race without even getting to know them
Call it whatever you want to, but every country has a right to reserve certain rights to the belongers of that country. When you come to my house you don’t have the same rights as my kids.
My advice, work here in the BVI, save money, return home and help clean it up, whether politically, socially or physically. That is your country. Respectfully, this is my country and you have no right to demand the same exact rights as mine.
Good post! But this is not an issue of an expat asking for local rights, not at all! They just want mutual respect! I know people who have invested millions in the BVI and hire a lot of locals but they still have to wait in line at Labour like everyone else for permits. They still get treated like shit like they dont contribute anything. Those are the people that are crying out the most. They assist with employment and our economy, but they get the shaft.
The word ‘expat’ is a loaded one. It encompasses from a maid to a partner at a law firm. So imagine someone investing 5millino in the BVI, employing 50 locals who are handsomely paid, but have to line up at labour like a dog and be treated like shit by other locals and government officials. How do you think they feel? Do you think it’s right?
Part of this also stem from the VIP and their supporters in 2007 elections calling any investor willing to step foot in the BVI an invader. Look at how far that got us. I’m sure many of them wish we had a few invaders right about now. All their big trucks parked up, hi macs parked up, taxis park up, guest houses and apartments empty then we want Government to fix it? It’s our nasty attitude and ways that will be to our detriment.
I live and learn things so that I can survive anywhere. I’m a BVIslander but I’m prepared to move wherever the wind blows if needs be. I might one day be an expat in someone else’s country, trying to make a living. Using common sense never hurt a man yet!
So Crank are you suggesting that their should be different levels of ‘rights’ for different expats according to wealth? Are you suggesting that some expats should be able to bypass the procedures for monetary considerations?
By the way, I am a BVIslander expat in another man’s country, and if you think they make it easy for us, you lie. There are no rights for foreigners and no exceptions. Period.
ALL HE MUST BE ASKIN IS A PROFESSIONAL BEHAVIOUR. U SEE PEOPLE ON THEIR PHONES WHEN THEY SHOUL BE DEALING WITH CUSTOMERS. THEY GO OUT FOR LUNCH LONG LINE AND THEY DON’T SHOW UP UNTIL 3 HOURS LATER. YOU ARE NOT FROM HERE WHY SHOULD I CARE. THATS THE ATTITUDE U GET FROM SOME OF THE GOVERNMENT WORKERS. BUT WAIT. WHEN THE SHIFTING HAPPENS I HOPE ALL OF U WILL BE READY.
So this is 2 separate issues.
1. Immigration and Labour policies.
2. Inefficiency of Government workers.
I can assure you that when it come to gov’t workers, the service they provide is the same whether you from here or not, but that is a separate issue from what we are discussing here which is Immigration and Labour policies.
To The boss etal…. Bonds are not transferable? every bond is new, every work permit is new. FYI
no employee must be subjected to inhumane conditions.
Is asking a foreigner to leave the virgin islands inhumane when they are going to a country that doesnt have any political turmoil? Every country have a right to protect its citizens constitutionally. whenever the BVI talks about protecting its people MOST of the Ingrate/ungrateful expatriates fuss about that. What do theu really want. Try going to Bermuda with these antics.
Bermuda is 3times the size of tola.
3 times the reason for us to be selective about allowing people to come here and stay here.
ray and the others are getting this blown out of proportion.
My experience: had a worker from a large island. She was not on the island for 3 weeks and she was feisty and disobedient. Her attitude sucked. So we fired her. We were advised by immigration that she must leave the island forthwith because she hadnt been in the island for one year.
We gave her the final salary and ticket? And she never left. Instead she was working secretly (illegally) for another employer and in the end he hired her while still on island. It was unfair to us because the employer was a competitor.
Hadnt we intervened at some point he would not have been told to let her leave and come back as per the policy.
We have hired people before who worked for us for several years then decided to move on to other jobs for some reasons. we have no problem with that but when u pay all those expenses to get one here and they disrespect you, and dont want to do the work orders, and flatly refused to do certain thins based on their job description then the BVI does not need those persons.
Its only when they realise how sweet the money is in the BVI they fight to stay and will use even their crotch to stay. and we know that.
I agree with dr pickering when he said, every situation has to be dealt with individually. And he is right.
There are some situations where the employer is just mean and cruel and want to dismiss employees for doing whats right, so in those cases the authorities must exercise leniency and compassion.
But we must agree that the job hopping policy is being severely abused.
Well, I am not at all suggesting that rules should not be followed. In the situation that you described, while I understand your frustration with that employee, I fail to understand after she was no longer in your employ, what concern it was of yours to worry about what she did after? It seems to me that you should have reported to labor if necessary that she was no longer in your employ and let them take it from there.
But according to you, since she was going to be working for a “competitor” you got involved. You could not stand the fact that this was about to occur. I don’t think that is right. I think these matters should be taken care of by Labor. All employers who found themselves in a similar situation should simply be required by Labor to report it, and let Labor take it from there.
To try to affect a former employees plight after they leave your employ amounts to a control issue and sort of indentured servitude if you will. The situation you described here is a clear example of where Labor needs to institute clear reporting policies when someone is no longer on your payroll. Short of this, employers will be prone to abuse the process and such employees.
With respect to the fees you paid to get the employee here, that was part of doing business. You know this going in. If you had such concern about loosing money, then you could have hired a B.V.Islander, and you would not have had this problem.
Ray, after an employee is dismissed we are responsible for 1. submitting a letter indicating such to labour and immigration 2. ensuring she has her return ticket esp if shes been on island for less than a year. but guess what? she never exist the island and she never showed up at immigration or labour for an extension. so whose responsible? us because we signed a 1,000 bond. any questions to be asked we were the first to be called as to her whereabouts. at one point she could not be found by either immigration or labour. furthermore, the job was advertised for 3-4 months and NOT one BVIslander applied for the job. Furthermore, for the type of job, 99.9 percent of the people on island in that field are expats as BVIslander DO NOT want to do that work.
Well, given this specific example whereby the employee did not show up to labor or immigration nor file an extension, then you reported to Labor as required. But you clearly was pissed off that she was going to work for your competitor, and that did not sit well with you..wouldn’t you agree?
I have a few question. The $1,000 bond that you signed. Is that refundable or transferable if another employer hires such a person after they leave your employ?
By the way, it’s interesting that you mentioned that you advertise for the job for up to 4 months, and no B.V.Isander applied as they do not like that kind of job, yet if you listen to some, the expats are taking their jobs and opportunities away.
Here is a perfect case of you having a job and no B.V.I. applied for yet, yet people are complaining of expats. That’s why I ask these folks to take a look in the mirror and ask themselves what is the real reason they cannot find work.
Please get back to me on that question. I’m curious to know the answer. Thanks.
The bond is transferable ray. That’s not the point. The point is once that employee is still bonded to you, you’re obligated to them and they to you in terms of a first contact in case of any emergencies or need for info.
It’s human that I was not pleased she was going to work for the competition. Afterall she is going with some of our company secrets. So if you would not feel bad about that, then teach me how do it.
BTW she is now working for the competition.
And we did not attempt to block her work permit or try anything as such. I just expressed my displeasure or how I felt about how she handled the whole situation. Then on top of that she told the authorities a bunch of lies. Good thing we had all the memos, warning letters sent to her and emails etc, her job description ready when the authorities inquired based on what she told them.
we have no problem when people follow the proper procedures especially when they’re still under our car BY LAW. While she was “missing” when the authorities went looking for her she was still an employee of the company and we were held responsible.
@ Boss. Well, if that bond was transferable, I would have sought relief from that bond once she was no longer in my employ and be rid of her.
I applaud you for not interfering with her obtaining a permit, despite you were not pleased with the way she allegedly handled the matter.
Anyway, your experience confirms to me that there need to be some Labor reforms. The entire notion of employee bonding,and return ticketing should not be put on the shoulders of employers. Those are matters that should be the direct responsiblity of Labor imo. In other words, let those employees have their return tickets in hand before they enter the country at their own expense, and any bonding fees should be paid directly to labor by those employees. Save everyone a headache, and avoid much of this unnecessary drama.
Damn this Ray look nd sound like he know every damn thing.
If he want to have so much undue influence on the government and its policies, why he didn’t run for office?
Talking all day bout labour and immigration and don’t even know the procedures. Talking about who hire who and that time he never hire anybody in his life.
I would like to know what kind of job is this that BVIslander don’t want….cause I would think there are some out of work people that would probably snap up anything right about now
The truth is some of the expatiates come with an agenda they are told by others what to do when they come to the BVI.They have no respect for the ones who give them their first chance and permits. We need to pray! for people on the whole do not have goods intentons anymore greed envy and grudge is the name of the day no matter where you go .
May the truth about complaints stand out .
Some come with the intention of not leaving the BVI at all. This country need to enforce the rules for all not just some.
I find this expat vs. BVIslander debate quite troubling, and here’s why:
First, I empathize with all BVIslanders who are out there looking for work, and I truly wish those who are actively seeking employment do in fact find work. However, blaming expats soley for your lack of employment appears to me to be simple minded and misplaced anger. The entire debate has quite frankly taken on a bigoted tone which is unfortunate, and one that I personally do not wish to be associated with in any fashion as a fellow BVIslander.
The thought that an expat who may be in between jobs should be asked to leave the country while they do so legally is simply mean-spirited. And that’s putting it mildly. Not only is that suggestion insensitive & inconsiderate to those expats, but also “inhumane” using the good Minister’s word, and totally fail to see expats as fellow human beings many of whom have families of their own.
I ask my fellow BVIslanders who subscribe to that thinking, if you or a family member of yours was an expat in another country, would you wish to be treated the same? I am sure if you truly search your souls, you would not.
Now, this entire debate boils down to jobs & opportunities, and some of my fellow B.V.Isanders feel they are at a disadvantage. But the question has to be asked, are they at a disadvantage because expats are here in the country, or are they at a disadvantage because they do not have the skills for those jobs and their resume’s are paper thin, or are they at a disadvantage of their own making because they simply do not wish to do the jobs an some expats are willing to do? For God’s sake, expats has been part of our employment landscape for donkey years. So, why they big fuss now?
There is an underlying assumption that ONLY if expats were not in this country, then BVIslanders will find work. But, I would suggest to those who subscribe to that thinking that they should really search their souls on this, and ask themselves if indeed this is the ONLY possible reason why they cannot find the work they wish? I would further suggest to everyone who feels this way, to take a look at themselves, and ask truthfully, what has truthfully prevented you from getting the job you so desire? Is it your work ethics? Is it your mind-set about your having “born here” and is entitled, or does your skills and background have anything to do with it? Only such persons know the real answer.
At any rate, I am pleased to read that Dr. Pickering appears to be approaching this debate with a fair mind, and I trust than no such discriminatory policy is ever adopted in these lands. As I stated before, I trust all my fellow B.V.Isanders seeking employment are successfully in doing so, but they should not rely on the fact that they are “born here” and that is qualifications enough to get a job. Finding a job in today’s world regardless of where you reside or are from comes down to competition. The man/woman with the necessary educational background, experience, skills, and or willingness to do certain work or accept a particular salary is usually the ones that are a successful in gaining employment.
So, I say to my fellow B.V.Isanders who have issues with expats relative to jobs & opportunities to take a look in the mirror, and do what you have to do to compete and be successful in accomplishing your goal. You should not expect the government to sanction discriminatory policies to achieve your goals. And the government should not be a partner in that discrimination as well. Finally, being born in the B.V.I. does not or should not entitle you to a job without ANY other consideration or factors. I wish you the best on finding work on your own merit.
Ray, reasonable, compassionate, practical, sensible , and balance post. You provide invaluable input for astute stewardship of governmental responsibilities. Do not be deterred; many of us peruse what you have to say with interest. Your posts are instructive, informative, and educational.
Thanks Storm.
Well said.
As always, a reasonable, balanced, and realistic take and approach to a complex issue.
Finally a minister with a heart and soul and compassion and fairness. Thank you for that balanced view Doc. I am almost moved to tears by your non partisan , pragmatic stance.I ask the question ” had the shoe been on the other foot how would the haters have felt?” Why cant we live in peace and harmony being mutually supportive and respectful towards each other
Job hopping is but a minor problem vexing employment in the BVI. The expat-local employment debate is one that has been decades in the making. Virgin Islanders traditionally have been and are concentrated in white collar jobs. But the BVI has grown and there was increasing need for blue collar skills. But Virgin Islanders did anticipate, embrace, and adapt quickly to changing employment needs.
Lets be real. These new blue collar and some top white collar jobs had and must be done. It was and is a supply and demand issue. Local employers had a labour demand that could not and is for the most part still not being adequately supplied by the local labour force. Frankly, Virgin Islanders have not been effectively prepared to take up employment in the new economy. Lack of planning and effective training and education put squarely in this untenable situation, divisive situation.
So what were employers to if they could not recruit locally? They recruited externally. Are labour issues manage as effectively as they can and should? No. Are some individuals and businesses acting out of self-interest? Yes.
Moreover, there are some jobs that Virgin Islanders scorn. This is universal behavior in countries with large migrant population. Additionally, in some businesses will exploit the vulnerability of expat. workers. The BVI is a right to work location. The employer can part ways with an employee and employees can quit their jobs at any time. It is not unreasonable for an expat. worker to given some time to find another job provided they can provide for themselves and do not become a burden on the territory. Perhaps they can be required to put up a refundable bond;small portion retained as an admin fee.
At least the Minister seems to be a rational person. Where is that other country, where you have to leave if you lose your job for whatever reason? That speaker obviously does not want expat workers here. What he and others like him want are “indentured labourers”, the next step up from slavery.
I don’t think it is correct that in every other country non-nationals do not have a right to look for work. I think it is probably the opposite. In many European countries, immigrants receive full unemployment benefit whilst they look for work if they lose their job.
Are you willing to make a weekly, bi-weekly or monthly contribution to this unemployment fund?
Some want slavery alive in the BVI.
Thank you Dr. Smith! Still the BVI construction people for example are far out numbered by immigrants and this has affected the BVIslanders wages as well as the quality of construction.
At what point is Immigration going to hold the line on new entries?
99% of BVI contractors use island people to do the work while they collect the money, FACT! Go back and do some research from babbling foolishness boss. The only local conrtractors are the older guys like Jamsie etc. The younger set don’t lift a stroke!
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